SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yes. There you go, Mr. Lifestyle. Good stuff. Tom Sawyer. Absolutely. By Rush. You know, that was the amazing groups ever. That song changed the direction of that band. Yeah, yeah. They kind of turned pop ish. Everything else that they wrote was like. Prior to that, it was all like 17-minute long rock deals, you know, with no vocals and different things like that. And the people that listened to them, it was just this dedicated group of hardcore folks. And then the Moving Pictures album came out with that song, and it wasn't 17 minutes long, it was maybe three and a half or whatever. And it was a hit on the radio for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Game changer for them.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah. And um they they then went sort of pop ish, I think, at that point. Hey, how's it going, Dimitri? Hey, hey. Um, hey guys. You know, and they were famous actually back then for not going commercial. Yeah. Going commercial a lot of things. Yeah, you didn't sell out and they stayed true to their um their artistic selves. And uh uh I don't know. Yeah, I you can't really say that they sold out, but they definitely start to have much more of a poppy flavor, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

And I and I hate to say that it's pop because it wasn't pop, it was still them, but but you're right. They were shorter, they were catchier, they were stuff that would work on the radio. You're right. Yeah. Um then that's when they started having all their hits and wide distribution and mass people listening to them. Still no women listening to them, still a guy-only band. Yeah, anyone who's ever been to a rush concert, it's like there's no women here.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

What kind of LLM are you talking about, guys?

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Rush. The Rush LLM. The Rush LLM, yeah. The LLM of progressive music. Yeah. Well, you know, you think about it, like, yes, the great band Yes never really had uh I mean, I went to a couple of their concerts and there weren't like a ton of women, and like their most uh well-known song is uh owner of a lonely heart, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yes What is that song that started like changes or something? Changes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're right, it was a unique, a unique sound that's not gonna work for everybody, but it was really cool. Yes was a good band, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Oh come on, not just good, they were incredible. They were great.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

And who can forget the super group that pulled from Yes and Emerson Lake and Palmer and a few others to create Asia.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Ah they had some really, really amazing bands back.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

They had one album. I mean, I'm sure they made other albums, but they had their one Asia with this dragon thing going out of the water, and they had a bunch of hit songs and then never heard from them again.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah. Um yeah, uh, but if you think about it, the music that were that they were making at the time was really, I mean, it was progressive.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

It was so different and virtuosity at a different level. Yeah. Not only in you know the musicality, but also just the composition, you know. And you know, like the stuff that Rush was well known for, or was known for at the time, was sort of being this uh they were sort of this uh futuristic, you know, a lot of the themes are futuristic and uh you know, sci-fi-ish, dystopian uh stuff. And I think uh it it it resonated with uh the counterculture at the time, you know, and like the sci-fi nerds.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

If you look at video clips of when they're doing concerts in the 70s and they're like wearing these outfits, these futuristic or robes or whatever, but like bring in yeah, sci-fi wizards.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

It's actually quite interesting because uh I I had uh amazingly have a similar conversation with one of my uh my colleague after a few uh few beers at the bar, and we we were actually arguing that uh this was an era like the seventh eighteen, and basically beef for social media, where people will really identify as a group around their music, they will dress lightly, they will organize it. I think it's less the case nowadays with you know the massive, you know, TikTok, Taylor Swift. It tends to be more the artist that directs the people as opposed to you associate it with the lifestyle, the genre, the type of the music being in a community. So I don't have raw data or evidence of that, but I yeah, I think it's it would be an interesting thing to analyze a little more because I really feel that the communities do not come from you know, we have our own idea and we organize around the style of music. It's more oh, we're bombarded by that and we just followed. So anyway, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

That's interesting. You never know. You never know. There are certainly guys who's like, I want to be part of a band, I don't want to be a solo, or I don't want to um, I don't know if this is a good example or not. I remember I watched I I was on the airplane once and I watched the it was a documentary about the band Chicago. Yeah. Um, and you know, they it was always noticeable that if you saw any of the band members from Chicago on the street, no one would know who they were. Um, you know, of course they're known as a rock band with horns. And um, but uh the part it was interesting, you know, because it was like there's there was no lead in the band. Uh and so I guess what's the guy's name's last name is Foster. He's like a total hitmaker out of LA producer. And when they had their album in the early 80s, um, I forgot which Chicago, they're all numbered. Um, and that was the first thing he did. He's like, Who's the leader of this band? And they're like, There are no leaders, we're all just a band, we're all together. And he goes, No, someone has to be the leader. And so he made Peter Satara be the leader because he was singing a lot of the songs and crafted this whole narrative and everything. And it worked, and had some mega probably their biggest hits, but I heard that they weren't comfortable with it, you know, it wasn't who they were.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

That that was how my band was. Well, you know, um, I was in an originals band, and that's how we kind of organized ourselves. Because, you know, when you do original music, there's a especially with horns, there's a lot of friggin' attitude, man. And everybody wants to either be part of the creative process, or um and they usually are, right? Yeah, or they want to lead, they want their idea to uh be in there, and um you do have to kind of have a uh a democratized process, you know, there's friction that you have to deal with, um, but I you know, you have to have kind of uh like what they you know they call like a headless band in order to in order to keep people around, you know? Um you have uh a reasonable amount of constructive friction uh that uh keeps the band together. And it's that creative thing. It's not like being in a cover band. Cover band, nobody gives a shit. Everybody just sound exactly like the recording, right? But when you're writing your own music, it becomes a hugely personal thing, and so yeah, it's really difficult unless the uh person is like remarkable and people just gravitate around that person, like Michael Jackson. Yeah, you know, Michael Jackson, you didn't tell Michael Jackson what to do, you know. You might do something, he likes it, and he'll take it, but that's on his own volition in all likelihood, right? I finally I finally saw the movie.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

I went and saw it to Michael. I love it. It was great, it was great. I can see why it's the biggest selling biopic of all time. I think it's probably almost reached a billion dollars. Um wow, and there was a lot of haters because it's like, oh, you're not telling the whole story about all the bad stuff, you know, and they're like, Well, that's not the story we want to tell. We want to tell the rise as a kid, the Jackson 5, the Jacksons, um, heavy influence on the dad, um, and how he was just you know, hardcore abusive on Michael and the brothers. Uh, and and like, well, you gotta do this, or you're gonna end up working in a steel mill like your old man. Oh crap, that sounds like me. Well, you know, it he's kind of he was kind of right.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Sounds like every tiger mom out there.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

He was a tiger dad, and I think he went too far, but at the same time, you probably can't argue that if it wasn't for all the stuff that he kept pushing those boys to do, they never would have they would still have been living in Gary, Indiana, and never would have done anything. Um, but yeah, but at the same time, he was abusive and way too far. Um but uh gosh, you know, what a and it's really interesting, he did not like the idea of Michael's stardom. He he wanted it all to be equal across all the brothers in the Jacksons, uh yeah, and and of course, all these, you know, Quincy Jones and people who actually matter in that world were like, this kid has something that no one's ever had before, and he's the the magic for the whole deal. These other guys, great, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Dude, think about okay, so really quickly, and then we'll we'll jump back on Michael Jackson. Hey, welcome to IoT Coffee Talk. Remember to take us seriously at your own risk. And yes, we will eventually talk about IoT and tech at some point, but we're like mired in all this music stuff. Uh, but uh yes, take us seriously at your own risk. If uh we're here just to have fun, and also if you're into fashion and you're not into charity, you know, pick up an IoT Coffee Talk t-shirt. A lot of folks out there don't know that you can, but yeah, just go to www.iotcoffee um talk.com and um there's a link. Uh and also uh make sure to check out our charity, which is Elevate Communities. And we're gonna be centering uh this uh let's call it a reinvention of Elevate Our Kids to focus more on communities uh that are maybe underfunded. They don't have uh the funds to uh uh capitalize or utilize technologies that are out there that many of which are cited in Rob's upcoming book uh to help their communities be more resilient and uh prepared for natural disasters and any other things that can uh can bring a community down. We want to elevate community. So, with that, back to Michael Jackson!

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah, wasn't it great how Michael Jackson made up words? Yeah, like there's a lot of songs, he just made up words and sounds and stuff like that. Um what was interesting though, when you think about sounds, um Well, you know who you got it from is James Brown. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, James Brown did a lot of that. You're right. Um what James Brown was singing, you couldn't understand, you didn't sing well because some of the interesting stuff about the movie is there were certain people who declined to be a part of the movie. Uh like Janet Jackson is not anywhere to be found in the movie. But if you you read the history of it, when he did his first solo album off the wall, there's lots of weird sounds and spoons and metal and tin pans and stuff like that. And that was little Janet as a little girl making all these crazy sounds for the background for some of the songs that were huge hits. Um, and then uh gosh, who's the other person who's really tight with Michael? She's declined to be involved, but or I think they shot Latoya, huh? Latoya Jackson? No, um uh not a Jackson. Uh what's her name? Um come in, huh? Um anyway, Diana Ross. Diana Ross, because you'll remember Diana Ross and Michael were oh yeah. Yeah, and apparently they filmed a lot of stuff with her a part of it, and then at some point she said, I don't want to be a part of this or something, and they had to reshoot. Do uh yeah, it's probably a mess. Um yeah, but uh, but yeah, you know what? You watch the movie and it's it's all the best stuff. Yeah, and you're and for the people that don't know the history, when you see that first Jackson 5 band playing, and an eight-year-old little kid is the lead for the band, you knew there was something different going on here, something magical, right? It's like, how is this eight-year-old little boy the lead of this band and all these hits? You know, it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah, I mean, at some point, you know, it's like um if you have a problem with uh Michael Jackson, then you have a problem with Picasso.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

They all everybody's flawed. I don't, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

I mean, if you go to the Picasso Museum in Barcelona, I thought I was gonna be like, I'm like, what the hell? Right? It's like what is this dude into? You know what I'm saying? And back then, it I don't I don't know. I I don't want to give any excuses for people, but you know, the yeah, it's weird that uh uh some of the most uh revolutionary art um and you know Michael Jackson hands down is like a friggin' remarkable genius, right? Um but yeah, sometimes that comes with flaws.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Um well I think they also get kind of a lot of people didn't realize, you know, when you think of him, uh he never really I don't want to say he never grew up in a bad way, but he was a he had this mind of a child, and he still was a child at every age. And the things he did and things he surrounded, he was just really all about that toys, animals, stuffed animals, buying weird animals living at their house, neverland and all that stuff. You know, it was he was always very childlike, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

The things he was into. Um, I do have an essential question. What does all of this have to do? Any of this have to do with IoT? Oh, you know, at least bring it back, man.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Bring it back. We're gonna bring it back. All right, actually, I wanted to highlight something. You just made an interesting comment um about maybe you're not into charity, maybe you're not into doing good things, but you still want the merch. And so the whole deal is like, well, at least buy some merch, you get a t-shirt, and you'll still help, even if you could care less about the good we're doing. That hit me in the latter stage of writing this new book.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Uh, at some point, I was like, okay, I've killed myself with these hundred use cases and all this stuff, and it's all about doing good and saving the planet. And I was like, oh my God, there's a lot of people who could give a shit about any of this stuff. And I was like, what do we do for all the people who don't care about any of that stuff? And the only thing they care about is chiching the money. And so, because of that, towards the very end, I was almost done with the book. I went through a hundred all the hundred use cases and added a section on economic benefits for every one of them and how it will show you the money or save you the money or things like that. Yeah. Um, because you're right, there's a lot of people it's like, yeah, I don't care, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

You know, yeah. I mean, I mean, it sounds like a really screwed up thing to to say, but you have to invest a lot of marketing and energy into tapping in, you know, doing good. I mean, I don't know, it's like weird, it's the weirdest experience, right? You would think that um people would jump on board and you know, we hear all the time, oh yeah, you know, you guys have a great show and we love what you talk about. And it's like, okay, well, we're we're not talking about the fluffy stuff, we're getting you much closer to what it takes to implement IoT-related stuff in a way that is beneficial and not nonsensical. And yeah, but yeah, you're right, everyone's chasing dollars. And the worst part of it, I think, the most difficult part of this is that most of the use cases of IoT, uh it's insurance. It's like insurance related. And nobody wants to pay for insurance. Yeah, no, uh, yeah, they just wish they had insurance when the disaster happens. Disaster happens, when a crony day comes. Like, ah shit, you know, God, I wish I got fire insurance and then you know.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

In fairness, in fairness, I think the root cause of that is that insurance companies do a little job of communicating that they're trying to do good as opposed to they're just trying to make money. So I think that's a it's an interesting point because maybe that's actually uh a good dimension to explore. Is there how can insurance companies can transform themselves into, hey, we're not here just to pump your money, we're here to do good and we have to neutralize and blah blah and blah blah. So uh that's that's but I think it's it's their problem. Well, they don't want to buy insurance. They they find that fear works a hell of a lot better than I know, I know, because again, we always go back to the same thing. The primary objective is to make money, it's not to make good. So that's that's the point. Listen to what Rob just said. My primary objective was to make good, but if I don't put the money for the guys away, it doesn't work. So we're running around circularies. So you've heard me say that several times on the show. As long as we don't change the real roots from diamond souls or what we teach in MBAs and add a little bit, yeah, it's good to make freaking S money, but you also have to take into a consideration one, two, three, nothing's gonna change.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Right. No, you're so right. You know, I remember the insurance thing, you know, that hit both Leonard and I in the head when we were at this that IoT World Yeah Congress thing, like in years ago, dude 2018 or whatever it was, and we met the relayer guys, yeah. And we're and heard the whole story, and it was all about insurance and actuarial tables. And, you know, you've got a product leak detection for the home, you have a direct sales force, you're trying your best, but still not happening. And then somebody's friends with somebody who works for a homeowner's insurance company in Germany, and they had their actuarial guy take a look at the tables and the statistics, and they go, our biggest payouts are for flooding of a home, which is crazy. I thought it would be fire. And um, and they did the numbers and they decided it's cheaper for them to for the insurance company to buy the leak detection IoT gear and give it to their policyholders for free. Um, and all of a sudden, that IoT company is now successful, not by the path that they thought it would be. Are they still around? They ultimately got acquired by Munich Re, a re-insurer. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. The insurance company said this IoT stuff is so valuable that it's worth it to give it to our customers for free. And we and we pay it.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

Yeah, but the yeah, but but but the but the so valuable was not driven by hey, we're gonna save water for the planet. Is we're gonna save freaking money. Yeah, but like six degrees of freedom right over there. So that's why we can hope at some point that you know there will be a realization that's because again, I'm not saying you should go all the way on the other side. It's only do good and be poor, but it's the balance between the profit aspect and the other parameter that doesn't exist, which I think.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Well, see, that's why like I think uh science and good statistics and math are the important bridge between uh you know what people believe and what drives action and uh the Situation they're in, right? I mean, look at what's happening all over the world, what's happening in Europe. Oh my God. You know, these are what how often do we hear about extreme weather events? It's like literally every day, not just on a local scale scale. We're talking about like entire region, right? Or entire continent, uh the entire world. And people go, you know, it's like uh cows farting, is what it's causing.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

But to your to your point, Leonard, scientists have been saying that for decades now. But because we couldn't attach any monetary aspect to it. Now it now it's gonna come because yes, insurance are gonna start losing their shirts. So maybe somebody's gonna do something, but uh, I don't think they're gonna do anything, they're just gonna raise the premium and cancel your contract.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

So, yeah, maybe we give props to the scientists. You're right. It's getting easier.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

They were right all along. Yeah, science matters, people. They were right all along. The numbers show there's a lot of people who don't believe in things. It's not a belief, it's not a religion, it's just data about what's really happening.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Yeah. And and in the business, I mean, right now, where you know we we we we we basically provide uh uh you know measurements for for construction and insurance industry, you're officially starting to see this game where the events are actually saying, oh, there's gonna be more and more weather events in your area, your roof is gonna leak, so your premium is gonna go up because your roof is too old, which allows the construction guy who gets also the same data to call into the customer and say, hey, you have an old roof, if you don't want your insurance premium to go up. So there's this cycle running around. But the the frustrating on a bigger scale is that it's still all about who's making a profit. It's not, oh, we need to have better homes because our children's gonna get wet if the roof leaks.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah, you're right. You're so right. You know, crazy weather. I was uh so I just got home from vacation. I was in the Pacific Northwest cruising around with Kathy um all over the place. And we stayed a few days. Uh you've probably never heard of this area, Lake Shillan. It's in eastern Washington, beautiful huge lake. So kind of it's kind of like where a lot of people up there go in the summertime. Uh and there were wildfires all over the place while we were there. And we were watching, I got video of not only the helicopters with the big scoops scooping water out of the lake and then flying over and dumping, but airplanes, and I was looking for the scoops and they weren't there. And then you watch it, this type of airplane would literally be on the surface of the water, and it had some internal thing that filled up, and then it would take off again. So you couldn't see an external container of water. And and they and those guys worked so hard, these firefighters on planes and helicopters, it's just constant rotation. Lake, pick up water, dump, come back to the lake, pick up water. And then they had to have people because lots of people are out boating and water skiing and everything, and then had to have firefighters with a big boat out there with megaphones telling people to get their boats out of the way of the landing zone for these planes that needed to land on the lake to grab water to go up. And so, because you had a whole lot of people who were like, Well, don't ruin my vacation, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

As the resorts going up in flames.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah, I've got tons of videos. It's crazy the the fires. And so in the end, I think the like a hundred different structures burned to the ground. You know, I think maybe a third of those were homes. Um, it was it was horrible. I finally put the final finish, finish, finish the book while in the fires. All the last details I had to have before I pushed it through the process through Amazon, you know, to and it's and the fact that it's a hardcover, which means it's gonna cost me more to print. Um yes, the last thing I did was have to create an index. Stupid shit, right? At the end of the book, and all that kind of stuff, right? Um, but yeah, it was it was kind of interesting, and maybe apropos that it happened there in the middle of all these fires, it's like this shit's real, it's really happening. Lots of lots of money, you know, was lost. Uh, one person died. Um this shit's helping more and more.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Yeah, Utah, three firefighters died.

SPEAKER_04 26:23

I I witnessed a similar phenomenon two years ago in um Likida Bela by Beckers Field was the borrowed fire. That was the same thing. You had all the helicopters. It was not only helicopters there because it's it's in the ballet, so the planes couldn't redo it, but it was it was horrible and yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, yeah, and recently uh, you know, uh I think like wasn't there like a post Stephanie posted it, she shared her uh regarding uh Qualcomm, what they're doing with uh IoT for fire detection or you know, uh early warning stuff. So there's solutions out there, you know, uh things that could help save life, save properties, and instead everyone's dumping all this money into AI infrastructure, and then these guys talking about oh hey, you know, uh we can almost reduce the you know the water entirely used by data centers and use closed loop, blah blah blah. What about the heat? How are you gonna disappear? Oh, hey, we're gonna use nuclear. Like, what about the heat? How are you going to dissipate the heat? Are you gonna inject it into space? I mean, you know, um priorities are totally twisted. And for what? You know, for what? Seriously. Get everybody out of work. Where's the revolution? Where's the revolution? Right?

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Make more, make more money, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Make more chips, and then you have to do that. Yeah, did you see?

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Um, you know, we've often talked about we've often talked about how much Oracle is going into debt to do this, the financing. Yeah, but I there was a blurb about Amazon. AWS just did another huge debt offering. Um, you know, because there were a lot of companies that, you know, oh well, we we have all that kind of cash sitting in the bank, so we can do it. And then there were others that don't have that much money and they were having to do debt offerings, sell bonds, things like that. And so uh yes, that's spreading.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Which makes them leveraged more as a company.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

And then now all this stuff doesn't work out. And then now they're everybody is doing this for deploy your thing. I mean, okay, Microsoft, whatever, keep brilliant. Um AWS, I don't know, it's like one or two billion. You have Google doing it. You have uh I think it's now Salesforce doing it. Um I don't doubt that all of the AI um you know pumping ISVs are gonna do it. But that's that's incredible, right? And then the GSIs are sitting, you know, the Lloyds and Kick centers of the world are on the sidelines going, okay, what's going on? You know? Isn't that supposed to be us? I was like, yeah, isn't that supposed to be you?

SPEAKER_01 29:21

It was supposed to be you. You just didn't react fast enough. You didn't listen to Alex Carp when he invented that concept two decades ago. Uh and and and it and not to say that it's a silver bullet for anything, but you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 29:35

But but I think it's you know, I had a conversation recently on LinkedIn with one of my French friends on that as well. I think it's temporary because I I mean it it feels like we're going back to the C suite.a or parentier model where you sell your AI platform and you have to sell a body, a forward deployment engineer for a year that you charge a fortune to implement the crap. I think it's having a very fundamental non-understanding of what is technology promise. Because if this technology really promises delivers on its promises, sorry, which is cheap intelligence at scale, you don't need those deployments forward deployment engineering. You just need to think correctly, have your content well organized, and you can actually eliminate all these guys. So I think it's very temporary.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah, it's gonna be temporary because it's not gonna work. Um where are you gonna find these people?

SPEAKER_03 30:29

No, but that's the point. Yeah, but uh that's why anyway.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Where are you gonna find if they're not already with the GSI's?

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Yeah, but because it's you know for me are you gonna find it?

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Yeah, yeah, but actually I have a different point of view on that because the the the the the things you can do with AI when it's really mature correctly enough is that you can start from an ID and a context, and you can totally you can totally automate implementation. That's what it is good for. It is not good for reprocess engineering your thing. If your thing is bad and not well done, not any not not any any system integrator or consultant is gonna fix it with AI, it's just gonna make it look like it is bad and it will disappear.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

So well, but see that the thing is is everyone thinks that you can do the latter, right? You can transfer all this. But they will fail, but they will fail unleash AI revolution. Where are those people who can do this stuff because they've had three almost four years to figure it out?

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yeah, but I agree with you. I agree with you that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

But everybody listening should uh but ask the question where do you find these people and what's their experience? Have they actually implemented something? Dude, I I talked to so many, so many of these uh companies, and I talked to their engineers, project manners, dude. Where are the people who can actually deliver value? And all of these things are still in friggin' POC, man. It's like so you're gonna just take a bunch of their consultants and go, ding, you are now an AI expert. Yeah. Like some analysts, some analysts go, oh, you know, they have uh, you know, self-proclaimed analysts, they have no experience, don't know shit. And it's like, oh yeah, well, you know, just call yourself an analyst. And they get on the list. Oh.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

But that has been the same. My point That's a joke. This is a joke. Agreed. But no, no, the reality is that that's been the same with consulting firms from the beginning. You're getting these kids out of school at Ulsen Young, and they were thrown into businesses where they had absolutely no clue, but because they were smart, they were supposed to sit with you and tell you how to reorganize your business based on what they learned at school. So the point is if we reach a maturity in this AI technology, when there is a true form of real intelligence that becomes free, this is gonna change happening on speed. Because then the people who understand the business problem will be able to articulate it and get the automation to implement the system where we use those things.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

We heard this shit during metaverse too. Okay, and I I I I do I I 20 years that that business. Here's the thing, here's the difference. You know, we OJT people, right? Yeah, definitely. There is on-the-job training, but there is always somebody on the team who actually knew something, especially the regarding the domain, and could lead a team to solution, right? We had some great technical folks who actually knew the technology and could work with uh teams to deliver the solution. Initially, it's super painful, right? And then also the economics didn't work out all that well for those initial engagements because we had to do invests. Okay, there is investment. Then we have some folks who can implement solutions um in an accelerated fashion with competency, right? Before then, no, but there's a learning curve. We usually took the hits on those in the early projects. And this is what I experienced building the dot-com practice uh for ENY back then. The you know the GSIs had an opportunity to do this for three years, dude. And to start introducing um these forward deployed engineers now is a joke because there should the GSI should have already been able to um drive quote-unquote adoption as well as figure out what valuable AI is. Do you know what I'm saying? And at this point, everyone's still trying to figure out what the hell.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. I have no disagreement with this, but I I do believe that I do believe that the long-term model is not going to be that you need a consultant to tell you how to use the technology. Because it's it's going beyond tooling, it's going into the uh the the cognitive and the intelligent part. So my hypothesis is that there's two things that's gonna happen. Businesses which are not founded on the real true idea are going to be eliminated because they're going to be replaced by people who have a real vision and how have this automated intelligence to implement it much, much, much faster. So that's the way I think about it. And it's no forward engineer from GSIs or from vendors or anybody. I don't think forward engineers are gonna exist in five or ten years.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

You might be right. You might be right.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

You're gonna have people with ideas, with intelligent automated tools that can do stuff. This is what you're gonna get. All those idiots are gonna disappear. I'm 100% sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

I wouldn't call them idiots. They're they're the essential resources that we need. Yeah, I I don't I don't think we're gonna get where you're thinking as quickly as because you know people are truly uh, you know, they're discovering what these things can't do, right? I mean, we're now we're already seeing people uh talk back some of their bull, you know, aspirational bullshit about vibe coding. People are now vibe coding is becoming a joke. It's like, hey, you're you vibe coded this thing. Oh, no way this is going into production. It's interesting, you said that. Yeah, but but so much walking back of almost everything, dude. I mean, it's like we're constant cycles.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

But it's it's it's too immature, uh Leonard, because what what do you mean by vibe coding? If by vibe coding you mean I write in two sentences and I expect a production system, yes, total bullshit. Now, if you write in a very structural way, your context, your specification, exactly describe your system and use intelligence and automation to implement it, you can get results.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah, but you need an engineer to come up with the prompt. You do need engineers who actually know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

I disagree. I disagree with that. I disagree with the problem is not gonna agree at all. I think my personal experience is that the prompt is the least of the importance. What is important is the documented context in text is that you point the AI wees and then you give the objective to the AI. That's part of the prompt.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

That's context. I was talking to a friend of mine while I was on a trip here. He works for Salesforce.com, and they their leadership got the word that doing, you know, using AI for coding and maybe some vibe coding was gonna make their engineers 10x more productive. They were gonna create 10x more products and code and everything. And so they told all of the engineers you got to start doing this. And what they found is maybe they're getting two or three X because what they had to do is the the code is generated, but then engineers who actually know what they're talking about are now having to go line by line to check the code because they are on the hook. They are responsible for the outcome of the product because you know how AI, what's AI? It's not responsible for anything, right? IBM made some comment decades ago that you can't, the computer cannot be the final arbiter or the final voice or the responsible thing for what happens. It has to be a human. And so, uh, anyway, long story short, they've been playing around with this and they're by coding and they're doing real stuff, but they have to write tests and they have to double check and everything like that. And so it's it the this 10x thing didn't happen for that because they got it.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

But but but Rob, Rob, yeah, get take take that. Let me give you an analogy on that. Doing implementing ID's way to generate code is like saying, you know what? We used to write write in assembly code, and we're writing everything in assembly code. Now we have the C language and a compiler, but every developer is gonna have to use the compiler and go check the assembly code. That's the analogy. What I'm saying is that as a good analogy. This is the way if you create the context and call it prompt if you want. But if you have the documentation, the cleanness, the organization in the text way or what you want the system to uh deliver, there is going to be a point, and you might not be there yet, agree. There is going to be a point where the automation from that clear context to an implemented coded system that works will be totally automatic and will not require developers to go look at that. So I'm 100% with you. If what corporations are doing is that, oh, I'm doing AI tool to those engineers, but I expect them to check the code generative and it works. Yeah, this is fucking stupid and fucking bullshit and we never deliver anything. Totally agreed. But we need to rethink, again, we need to rethink the way from A, now I have cognitive and intelligent tools, which is not something that just makes me go faster in my usual way to do things. It is I have an intelligent assistant. So what do I use this intelligent assistant for what it can do and integrate that into a new workflow? So that's why I'm saying those people. So it's a re-engineering on the way we create systems.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah, but we that that contract is not new. It's about a year and a half old around the agentic stuff. What you know, the problem with it is you assume that the models will be reliable partners and reliable participants in your workflow and your Leonard.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

Leonard, totally no disagreement on that, but I'm saying that there is going to be a point where they are. That's just but it's an hypothesis.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

So I think we've already hit walls. We've already hit models. Now all they're doing is there it's the harness that is starting to build up as you try to extend the model into sort of these agentic functions and get them to be active participants in uh in a task or workflow or blah blah.

SPEAKER_04 41:07

I think we're doing a different way.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

I mean, it's it's like right in front of your everyone's faces, how much coding, I mean, it's like ridiculous how much how much code has to be used, like traditional software, to uh create a harness around a model. It's like friggin' ridiculous. And it's it's to the point where actually using an agent safely ends up becoming more bloated than just using a script. And and so the whole approach to this stuff is is wrong.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

But again, Neonard, I I there's no disagreement. I think that the approach we're taking to using a GentLIC is wrong. The approach would be very centered on the again, the documentation, the contextualization, and using the tool for exactly what we're doing. And that's how that's what this stuff is. No, because for example, for example, I after I went through the route of using let me finish. I went through the route of going to use OpenCloud and Eremus. And when you start using those frameworks for a while, after a while you realize that they're starting to deviate. Because the the they try to invent the context from the tiny little few sentences you give them. I'm on the opposite direction. I write a gigantic amount of text that I give to the AI, and the more text I write, the better result I have. The question I always ask to people is how much do you tell UAI? If you just say two ten sentences and expect something brilliant and stuff, you don't get it.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

But here's the thing: think about all the effort that you put into writing all those documents and creating the inputs into the prompt. But you know, as I listen to you, you're completely discounting your experience, your knowledge, your expertise, your human competence. You're saying that uh it has nothing to do with the uh the prompt.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

No, no, no, not at all. Not not at all. And I wanted to make that comment, but not necessarily when Rob was saying that you know they give the whoever you mentioned give the agentic tool to their engineer and expect that. I think you cannot expect 100% of the software engineers to be able to do the things right and use them right. I think only the five or ten percent who understand architecture, who understand the overall pictures, are going to be able to document it too. So that's the outcome is good.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

It's supposed to be magic. It's supposed to be that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 43:40

But but yeah, but so though this agreement on that, I'm not saying that all the vendors now. But my point is that it's the wrong answer. The wrong answer is not to try to fix the wrong problem. The problem is that you're right, we are not understanding or ex explaining well what is the real Value of the system and how they should be integrated our workflow. We expect to put a little and the workflow to happen by magic. This is never gonna happen, and no forward engineer is gonna fix that. We're gonna have to I know we're gonna have to take some distance, understand again. Now I have cognitive power. That cognitive power is great for this. How can I leverage that cognitive power? Not just say that thing, hey, go do the thing for me. That doesn't work. You have to be very, very more specific. So anyway, rumbling.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Can I say something that maybe is controversial and unrelated to this discussion to break this away? Leonard mentioned briefly in one of y'all's diatribes something about the metaverse. And my my controversial statement is if Mark Zuckerberg didn't own 51% of Facebook, he'd be out on the street right now. He has blown so much money at that place, tens of billions, 80 billion, 100 billion, 100, 200 billion on all these adventures that have gone nowhere for that company. But he's he's the only CEO in this world that has complete control over the whole company. The board can't fire him.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

Bulletproof. Yeah. And on that's why I was saying, why do you think Elon Musk and Maxucumba keep that power? Why do you think they do?

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

Don't blame, don't blame them.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

I mean, yeah, yeah. And so it's, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Right, right. Well, you know, the the the they're they're um perceived as being sort of the um the cushion when things fall, you know.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

But but you know, it's all timing. It depends how many times. Because you know, let me give you go back to an example. I mean, the the the glorious day of globalization in 2000 to 2010 or 15, where we outsource all the manufacturing outside of our country. All the CEOs did that who did that. Where are they right now? Retired in Florida with tens of millions of dollars, and now we're realizing that we're depending on other countries. So it really depends what you do if the change happens during your lifetime, so you get the blame from it and you're correct it, or if it doesn't, and then you retire, you get the money, you don't give it crap.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. It is all yeah, you know, the whole globalization thing works as long as everybody plays by some set of rules and it's it it it it it makes the most efficient use of everything for sure. Yeah, but but the problem is it's humans are the problem. We have wars, we'll have trade wars, tariffs, things like that that just uh or or of or a virus that totally disrupts that smooth efficient yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 46:55

Well, let me tell you a little secret about humanity. The secret about the humans. We believe we're friends. We're what we don't. We have friends. We believe we have friends.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

We don't I almost thought you said that we are France.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

No, we believe we have, or we are actually, we believe we have, or we are friends. Yeah, but the hardcore reality is all we have is interest. Yeah. Thanks, Ayn Rand. And and and and that's and that's and that's totally true at the level of states, and this is where I criticize a lot of geopolitics, actually worldwide, not just in our country. Yeah, states don't have friends, they might have allies, but primarily they have interest.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

You're right.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

So whatever so whenever you engage into any kind of diplomacy or cross-states relationship, you have to think about oh, is he my friend? No, bullshit. What is his interest? What is my interest? And negotiate something that is beneficial for both. As soon as you get out of this picture, you get into the shitty world we are nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

So Dimitri just gave us a little synopsis of Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Um, and sadly, he's probably right because people are self-interested, they may talk a good game about stuff, but in the end, they're just self-interested, and you're right, these countries by the way, if you if you live in the Middle Eastern culture, you understand that very well because this is the primary driver.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

And I mean, and again, I'm not judging, just you have to look with the reality of the people and the the way we function. It's just the reality, and and this is probably in this specific instance, it is probably it is the majority of ignorance on our side of the cultural aspect of this civilization. We're not better, they're not better, it doesn't matter. It's just if you don't understand how they function, yeah, you get it.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Because of what Dimitri just said is why I had to go in with every use case in my book about giving good to the world. I had to show you the money in everyone because people saw that.

SPEAKER_04 48:58

You see where I was going, Rob.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Interest, right? Nobody's really interested in saving. But if I'm not gonna make a lot of money just helping kids, they're not interested in elevating communities.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

And and and the and the the end effect, Rob, is they're gonna read you a book, say, oh, I love this guy, he's my friend. Because now I see my interests. But guys, I mean, think about it. Really, really, I'm so convinced of that at my age. Once you understand this framework, life becomes much easier.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

You're right. You're right. It ain't as as Bob Sugar said in Jerry McGuire, it ain't show friends, it's show business.

SPEAKER_04 49:45

It's almost exactly the same thing. So yeah, very cool. Well, we we we we've solved the world problem.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Yay!

SPEAKER_04 49:53

So to your audience, once you understand that selfish, yeah, yeah, but no, but reflect on that, and you can.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

I mean, then we can we can advance humanity once everybody recognizes we're all selfish and centered.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

Yeah, I mean the first step of change is awareness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

There you go.

SPEAKER_04 50:19

Wow, that's how was your fourth of July, guys?

SPEAKER_01 50:24

I missed I missed that switch, so everything was on fire around me during the 4th of July. So yeah, it was great, you know. It was oh my gosh. Oh yeah, what a weird Fourth of July, you know. Um I mean, locally speaking, you're fine. Um, I don't know if the all the big 250 plans at at in Washington, DC played out the way people thought it would. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

I I don't trust anything I see now on TV or on any social media, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Well, yeah, I mean, um uh now it's cooler. Bad timing. Talk about timing. That was really, really bad timing.

SPEAKER_04 51:11

Yeah, there's a there's another big heat wave coming, I think, in Europe and specifically in France. And uh this weekend is one of the biggest people going to the vacation kind of weekend. There was a yeah, yeah. So there's uh there's another message. So hey, talking about France, are you guys watching the World Cup?

SPEAKER_00 51:28

We are yes, my my kid is all into it, and he knows.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

I figured if France lost, I know all the police and everybody in Paris were standing by for cars on fire and the Chandlaise burning, but they won, and so it was luckily the local Moroccan population in Paris that decided to burn the city down last night, you know.

SPEAKER_04 51:53

I haven't checked on that.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

I saw lots of videos, it's ugly. Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 51:57

Yeah, talking about talking about that, you know. I I told you guys, I think many few episodes ago that I had uh I had a vision that advertising will die because of AI. I'll give you an anecdote on that World Cup topic. I was so sick because I had an extremely busy week, uh, two weeks. By anyway, so I don't really have time. So I wanted to find out what is the status of the World Cup on a daily basis. Now you go on the Fox app or on the FIFA app and you're bombarded by the shitty advertising, and here is the news and the content. I wrote a prompt that every morning or on demand gives me a terminal style status of the World Cup, and it works like magic. I only have the coin for yeah, magic. No advertising, no things. I just go to my point, please status update. Terminal style, very clear. So I think advertisers should think about that because in a world where content is actually quite freely available, you're trying to channel your crap in the middle of it. You can now, I know what's gonna happen. We're still like you're in 94, 95 in the internet before advertising, so they're gonna find a way to inject shit in the answers. But right now, it is goddamn super cool.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Yeah, cool. All right, well, I gotta jump. I have uh Paul, but you wanna worry, man. Who wants to take us out? Should I do it?

SPEAKER_01 53:20

I think Dimitri should take us out. You do it, yes.

SPEAKER_04 53:24

I I I I don't know how to do that well, guys.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

So now you can approach it.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

Okay, okay, let me try. Let me try. So I think it was uh it was quite an unusual episode today because we spend uh a lot of time on music, and that was very, very refreshing. Very, very refreshing, more than usual. So and then yeah, when I jumped in, I was listening to you guys, and I thought you were talking about an LLM model, but you were talking much more about music. So we covered about music, then we went into uh Rob's upcoming book where we realized that just positioning and doing it for the good was not enough. We had to talk to the audience interest as well, which actually adds a very great dimension to the book, uh Rob. So we are looking forward to doing that. So and then we went to the mystery usual controversial views on everything in life. Uh, but I do do believe that there is a very interesting upcoming changes and uh and revolution with AI. So, which leads us to A, don't forget we are doing this not only for the fun, but doing the we're trying to do at our level this for good. So we are going to elevate our communities. So look at us, look at some announcements, get some swag, um, push a little bit your interest on site for a second and make friends for good. And um, I think that's about a good wrap. Yeah, and we'll take us seriously, especially me.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Like, share, good stuff, good stuff. All right, guys. See ya. Have a good week, too.